A win/win proposition

"BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather" (bugeyedacura) 09/14/2016 at 23:11 • Filed to: None

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VW/Audi has screwed themselves in America with Dieselgate. They’ve also screwed diesel enthusasts in America. There’s not doubt that the infrastructure in our country has grown by leaps and bounds in support of diesel in the last few years. Obviously that’s something that won’t go away, and the vacuum needs to be filled by someone. That someone should be BMW. They’ve got 4 available diesel models already in the USA, but none of them are “sexy”. Yes, you can get all of them with the M-Sport appearance package, but in Europe they have the actual M-Lite diesel cars like the above M550d. If BMW could bring that, and some other high end diesel offering to America, and put diesels in the sexy-bodied coupes, Gran Coupes, and SACs, then they could profit in a segment looking for a new savior.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/14/2016 at 23:17

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The M550d in Space Grey Metallic is probably the diesel car I dream of the most. I need one.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 09/14/2016 at 23:18

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I can’t find anything wrong with your statement.

Axial > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/14/2016 at 23:26

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But would the 550d meet US emissions spec? Would it be worth it to BMW to make it do so?

LongbowMkII > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/14/2016 at 23:26

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how exactly has diesel infrastructure grown recently?

Decay buys too many beaters > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/14/2016 at 23:28

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O.o I didn’t know this existed. I need one.

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/14/2016 at 23:30

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If anything diesel requirements are going to become much harder to meet. That’s a big reason why Mazda basically gave up here in the US

Also, BMW prices are a lot more than the VWs. Gonna be a lot harder to get market share when you won’t be able to get one under $40k

LongbowMkII > Axial 09/14/2016 at 23:32

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BMW 3/4ton pickups?

Axial > LongbowMkII 09/14/2016 at 23:39

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That would be interesting to see.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Axial 09/14/2016 at 23:52

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If the X5 35d can meet them, I don’t see why they couldn’t make the M550d meet spec.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > LongbowMkII 09/14/2016 at 23:59

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The number of diesel-serving stations in the DMV has doubled in the last 5 years. All Sheetz stations have gone from no diesel to at least 4 diesel pumps at each location over the last 2 years with their latest design rollout. And all BPs now have at least 2 diesel pumps. Many of these did not have them if they were off-highway 5 years ago.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Decay buys too many beaters 09/14/2016 at 23:59

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We all do my friend...

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! 09/15/2016 at 00:03

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BMW could always use Mini to fill the VW side. But Audi was expanding their diesel offerings when they got caught. BMW could easily fill THOSE shoes.

LongbowMkII > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 00:06

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Huh. I guess being in a brodozer/agricultural state I just kinda figured most stations had diesel.

Axial > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 00:07

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When you increase performance of a powerplant, it typically becomes more difficult to retain that performance and meet a given emissions criteria (unless that bar is low). It might be physically possible, but the costs might also offset the value added to the company by paying them. That’s why the Mk. IV Supra went off the US market when it did.

His Stigness > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 00:11

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As we've learned with this whole scandal, diesels are able to pass Euro standards much easier than those set by CARB. While I think BMW could get their M diesels to be compliant, they would never recoupe their costs. Seeing a BMW M diesel on the road would be like seeing a Mercedes with a manual: it just won't happen.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Axial 09/15/2016 at 00:14

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Yes, but weight also affects load on the engine which affects emissions. My statement was if the I6 X5 (a much heavier vehicle) can pass, a V8 5-Series should be able to pass.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > His Stigness 09/15/2016 at 00:17

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I don’t think they would recoup this cost now, but they would after some time. In business, someone has to take the first step. And the person who was first usually becomes the go-to. This is the investment in the future. And in the 54mpg corporate fleet average future, 25-30mpg M-Cars will be necessary. And this already utilizes an existing infrastructure as where electrification is still building.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 00:18

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luckily the diesel I care about will not be touched by it. Thank goodness for large trucks in MERICA

His Stigness > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 00:20

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Even before the scandal, I don't think there was a marker for a rather expensive high performance diesel in the US. Diesel is not very popular outside of trucks.

Axial > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 00:26

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Well that is an argument that is neither in the article nor in any of the comments. =/

That said, the X5 and M550d do not have the same engine configurations from the brief fact-check I performed. Weight affects load affects emissions, but not in the same that way being set up to produce more power does. Furthermore, IIRC the X5 is in a different emissions segment than the 5-series, further complicating matters.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > His Stigness 09/15/2016 at 00:26

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Something can’t be very popular if it doesn’t exist. It’s like how manufacturers say people don’t buy their manual cars, but they only offer them in penalty box models. Saying diesel cars aren’t popular when people aren’t even offering them isn’t a good example. They were huge for VW, and they were getting huge for Audi since they were actually starting to offer them. If BMW builds it, they will come...

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Axial 09/15/2016 at 00:29

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I just said that they don’t have the same engine in the response I gave you. And the X5 is unibody, which means it should be in a similar class, maybe one up because of the weight difference. But you don’t really get that big truck bonus until you body-on-frame.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 00:38

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Stay out of my head!

Seriously though, I was just about to post an article wondering if the M550d and the M50d X models would be successful here.

I think that they would be. What X6 owner wouldn't love blowing brodozers away at stoplights?

bhtooefr > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 01:19

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M550d is actually a triple-turbo 6-cylinder.

And, the problem is that at high load, high cylinder temperatures, that’s when NOx is the worst. And, because the automakers aren’t allowed to change strategies at higher power outputs without the change specifically being approved by the EPA, it’s hard to have low emissions in normal driving, then crank up the boost and NOx emissions once you’re out of the test cycle.

bhtooefr > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 09/15/2016 at 01:21

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Don’t worry, the reliability issues of heavy duty diesel nowadays mean that large displacement gas is making a comeback... and Cummins is already making a spark ignition version of the ISX12 for semis, running on natural gas, due to the lower fuel costs, and far lower maintenance costs.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > LongbowMkII 09/15/2016 at 03:37

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Without doing any verification or basic math, I’d say one out of three gas stations here offer diesel. The more rural it gets, the more likely it is to have diesel though

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 03:40

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But who would able to afford something like that? TDIs were obtainable by the middle class (if we’re not talking about the six people who got the A8L TDI). Doesn’t seem to be the same market to me.

DipodomysDeserti > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 07:30

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Well, they sold the 335d in the US which was sexy and sporty and no one bought them. They would sell exactly two M550d if they brought them over. It would make zero sense to sell a diesel M car in the US.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Carbon Fiber Sasquatch 09/15/2016 at 08:28

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Do you know how badass it would be to have an X4 with the 6-cylinder diesel? It would be absolutely stupid fun.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 09/15/2016 at 08:31

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The A6 TDI, Q5 TDI, and Q7 TDI weren’t cheap either. Hell, the Touareg TDI STARTED in the 50s.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > DipodomysDeserti 09/15/2016 at 08:32

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And who outside of the enthusiast market knew about the 335d? BMW was scared to market the car.

DipodomysDeserti > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 09:46

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People who buy BMWs. Mine was owned by a sixty year-old real estate agent in Prescott, AZ, before I bought it. The only reason they make these cars in Europe is because gasoline is insanely expensive and many countries offer tax breaks for diesel cars. Neither of those factors exist in the US, thus making them pointless here.

His Stigness > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 09:46

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But diesels are offered in the US, and so are manuals. A good example of a manual being offered but not nought was the 911 Turbo. The manual option had a else than 1% take rate.

But diesels barely sold more than EV’s at the height of their popularity. In 2013 VW Group only sold 100,000 across both brands, despite the fact that all but one VW had a diesel option, and they still only made up a quarter of their sales. And Audi had the most diesel cars out of the three Germans.

EV’s in the same year sold 90,000 units, 15 of those being Tesla’s.

I love diesels though. I have a TDI and I’ll never ever get rid of it. But there just isn’t the demand for diesels in this country. Sure, more units might be sold if they were offered by every brand, but they would always be a niche item.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > DipodomysDeserti 09/15/2016 at 09:49

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We have the largest highway system in the world, where diesel does it’s best work. Also, the government will actually credit you so many cents per gallon for diesel as an “alternative fuel”. I had a manager at VW and Cadi who had a diesel and was always getting the money back. Its just some hoops to jump through, but the money is there.

TylerJ > DipodomysDeserti 09/15/2016 at 09:53

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Wasn’t the system the 335d used to help emmissions horribly expensive to keep up on maintenance with?

TylerJ > LongbowMkII 09/15/2016 at 09:56

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I live in Louisiana and I thought nearly all stations had diesel. There are tons of bro-dozers here though.

This brings a thought to mind. Which came first, the chicken (the bro-dozers) or the egg (the diesel pumps)?

DipodomysDeserti > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 10:00

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You can only get a tax credit on diesel in the US if you’re only using biodiesel. Not only is biodiesel hard to find, but it would be a sure way to completely screw up a high end, European diesel engine. BMW diesel engines don’t even like normal American diesel. I had to have the entire top end of mine replaced at 30k miles because of shitty diesel. I ended up finding a place that sold premium diesel, which cost me just under $5/gallon.

Having the largest highway system is irrelevant when talking about diesel in regards to high end performance cars, and even more irrelevant when gasoline is dirt cheap.

DipodomysDeserti > TylerJ 09/15/2016 at 10:05

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It wasn’t that maintenance was expensive, it was that if you used shitty diesel and didn’t flog it, you would get really bad carbon build up in the top end. I had to have my whole top end replaces/cleaned at 30k miles because of it. BMW called it maintenance, but in no way is replacing the intake manifold/MAF/intake/EGR/various sensors and walnut blasting the head considered maintenance. I received about $10k in warranty work on my 335d . From then on I only used premium diesel, which only one station in my city had, and was very expensive. High performance diesels in the US is a not a good idea.

The Stig's former college room mate > DipodomysDeserti 09/15/2016 at 10:08

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the typical BMW customer at my dealership is just buying a badge. It’s rare that we see a true enthusiast car go through here. I thought we had one last fall- saw an M235i getting prepped, but it was an x-drive. all the m3/4/5/6's get bought by rich Chinese college students with dad’s money. then they get crashed almost immediately. The most popular cars? 320, 328 and 528. Used. And those people pick those cars apart. They want every little chip or scratch fixed before delivery. Mostly so their neighbors won’t know they bought a used car. And they all act like their base model Bimmer is a Ferrari. I just want to slap them and tell them my pickup truck cost twice what their 3 series did.

The Stig's former college room mate > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 10:14

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I think they only sell diesels here so that people with failed VANOS components will think that their valve train clatter is a normal sound. Or people with bad turbos would think that the black smoke is normal.

DipodomysDeserti > The Stig's former college room mate 09/15/2016 at 10:16

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I’ve purchased both my [used] BMWs from the largest M dealer in the country. It’s funny, because I see people dropping 35k on Camry’s, and am like, don’t they know they can get a low mileage German luxury car for half the price? I had a few friends scoff at me for what they thought I paid for my cars. I’m like, bros, these cost less than well optioned Civics.

The place is filled with M cars and they even have a few Alpinas in the showroom. They do Dinan tunes as well. I’m sure most of their customers are buying a badge, but lots of enthusiasts are there too. Last time I was there a guy was picking up his Z8 when I was there last time.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 10:28

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The carfection review of the X6 M50d is fantastic, makes me want one so hard.

TDIGuy > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 09/15/2016 at 10:42

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The problem is that the TDI people liked the thrifty fun diesel, although the BMW diesel is fun-ish and economical its still very expensive for a TDI owner to switch from

TDIGuy > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 09/15/2016 at 10:43

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Yeah to me a TDI was to be affordable, thrifty, and fun. Not the same market. I originally wanted to switch to the BMW diesel but they are just far to expensive for even a low trim model

The Stig's former college room mate > DipodomysDeserti 09/15/2016 at 10:51

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we had an alpina b7 last year. The guy that ordered it definitely looked like he just wanted the fanciest car in the parking lot at the golf course.

They sell a lot of M4s. the only enthusiast I can remember is a dr. he ordered a 6 speed. all the others have the stupid SMG. And punk kids buy them. And they all come back smashed. Especially in either late fall or early spring. they don’t realize those michelin pilot super sports have ZERO grip when it’s below 40 degrees out.

DipodomysDeserti > The Stig's former college room mate 09/15/2016 at 10:57

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If he wanted the fanciest car in the parking lot, he chose the wrong car. No one is going to know what an Alpina is. He should have just bought an S600. This dealer keeps a few Alpinas in stock. My daughter slapped the door of one. Gave me a heart attack.

TylerJ > The Stig's former college room mate 09/15/2016 at 11:44

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re: pricing compared to trucks

I bought a used ‘12 328i for $19k and now all my friends (or anyone that sees me in it) bug me about why I would pay so much for a car and I’m like, you guys are dumb. The 328i was like $5k cheaper to buy than my old Scion tC.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > bhtooefr 09/16/2016 at 00:15

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Reliability? Diesel engines run for hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles with basic maintenance. My truck engine isn’t even broke in yetand it has 178,000 on it

bhtooefr > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 09/16/2016 at 00:34

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How old is your truck engine?

Probably before 2007? Because that’s when emissions regulations got a lot stricter, and a lot of unreliable systems got added. The engine itself is fine, but you end up blowing many thousands of dollars over the life of a semi keeping the emissions hardware working.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > bhtooefr 09/16/2016 at 02:39

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Yea 99. And i know people with over 250,000 on newer 6.4 and 6.7 powerstrokes that are stock. Also know people who delete the EGR and DPF and have had 0 issues so far and they are stock internals making more than stock power.

bhtooefr > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 09/16/2016 at 07:57

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That’s not actually legal, is the problem, and the EPA’s cracking down on that kind of thing.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > bhtooefr 09/16/2016 at 12:57

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so are a lot of mods to cars and trucks techncally but lots do it. Luckily i dont have money for newer trucks so i dont have to worry about that trash